mcimg

START HERE
HOME
FAQ
CONTACT ME
341 TOPICS
THE EX-MORMON FORUMS

Click the subject to go directly to the article. Click the red arrow to the right of the article to return to the top.
Daniel Peterson Made Me What I Am Today
A Cat In A Hat? Nope, A Rock In A Chat
Daniel C. Peterson's Fluff Piece
Mormon Apologetic And Discussion Allegedly Board Wiped Thousands Of Dr. Peterson's Messages From The Board
Daniel Peterson, Director Of Outreach For The Maxwell Institute, Returns To The Forums
Dan Peterson's Advice: "Put It On The Shelf"
Peterson Is Really A Piece Of Work
Perhaps It Isn't Just That They Fear Dwindling Numbers
Daniel Peterson Admits The Mormon Church Is Not The Fastest Growing
Denial C. Peterson Rides Again - Deseret News: "Smiths Were [Not] Slackers"
DCP Article Demonstrating The Smiths Were Hard Workers
Daniel In Denial's Den?
Daniel Peterson Talks To Mormon Stories About His Career As An LDS Apologist And Much More (4-Part Youtube Video)
How Can We Trust Mormon Scholars?

Google
Search The
Mormon Curtain




WWW
Mormon Curtain
4,827 Articles In 341 Topics
  ⇒  COMPLETE TOPIC INDEX
⇒  ADAM GOD DOCTRINE (4 articles)
⇒  APOLOGISTS - SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  APOLOGISTS - SECTION 2 (22 articles)
⇒  ARTICLES OF FAITH (1 articles)
⇒  BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD - PEOPLE (13 articles)
⇒  BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD - SECTION 1 (18 articles)
⇒  BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD - SECTION 2 (9 articles)
⇒  BLACKS AND MORMONISM (9 articles)
⇒  BLACKS AND THE PRIESTHOOD (6 articles)
⇒  BLOOD ATONEMENT (2 articles)
⇒  BOB BENNETT (1 articles)
⇒  BOB MCCUE - SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  BOB MCCUE - SECTION 2 (25 articles)
⇒  BOB MCCUE - SECTION 3 (25 articles)
⇒  BOB MCCUE - SECTION 4 (25 articles)
⇒  BOB MCCUE - SECTION 5 (25 articles)
⇒  BOB MCCUE - SECTION 6 (19 articles)
⇒  BONNEVILLE COMMUNICATIONS (2 articles)
⇒  BOOK OF ABRAHAM - SECTION 1 (24 articles)
⇒  BOOK OF ABRAHAM - SECTION 2 (17 articles)
⇒  BOOK OF MORMON - SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  BOOK OF MORMON - SECTION 2 (25 articles)
⇒  BOOK OF MORMON - SECTION 3 (13 articles)
⇒  BOOK OF MORMON EVIDENCES (19 articles)
⇒  BOOK OF MORMON GEOGRAPHY (22 articles)
⇒  BOOK OF MORMON WITNESSES (4 articles)
⇒  BOOK REVIEW - ROUGH STONE ROLLING (28 articles)
⇒  BOOKS - AUTHORS AND DESCRIPTIONS (12 articles)
⇒  BOOKS - COMMENTS AND REVIEWS - SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  BOOKS - COMMENTS AND REVIEWS - SECTION 2 (12 articles)
⇒  BOY SCOUTS (14 articles)
⇒  BOYD K. PACKER - SECTION 1 (22 articles)
⇒  BOYD K. PACKER - SECTION 2 (7 articles)
⇒  BRIGHAM YOUNG (24 articles)
⇒  BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY - SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY - SECTION 2 (22 articles)
⇒  BRUCE C. HAFEN (4 articles)
⇒  BRUCE D. PORTER (1 articles)
⇒  BRUCE R. MCCONKIE (7 articles)
⇒  CALLINGS (10 articles)
⇒  CATHOLIC CHURCH (5 articles)
⇒  CHANGING DOCTRINE (3 articles)
⇒  CHILDREN AND MORMONISM - SECTION 1 (24 articles)
⇒  CHILDREN AND MORMONISM - SECTION 2 (14 articles)
⇒  CHRIS BUTTARS (1 articles)
⇒  CHURCH LEADERSHIP (1 articles)
⇒  CHURCH PROPAGANDA - SECTION 1 (6 articles)
⇒  CHURCH PUBLISHED MAGAZINES - SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  CHURCH PUBLISHED MAGAZINES - SECTION 2 (18 articles)
⇒  CHURCH TEACHING MANUALS (10 articles)
⇒  CHURCH VAULTS (3 articles)
⇒  CITY CREEK CENTER (12 articles)
⇒  CIVIL UNIONS (12 articles)
⇒  CLEON SKOUSEN (1 articles)
⇒  COGNITIVE DISSONANCE (2 articles)
⇒  COMEDY - SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  COMEDY - SECTION 2 (25 articles)
⇒  COMEDY - SECTION 3 (24 articles)
⇒  COMEDY - SECTION 4 (24 articles)
⇒  COMEDY - SECTION 5 (30 articles)
⇒  D. TODD CHRISTOFFERSON (3 articles)
⇒  DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 1 (18 articles)
⇒  DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 2 (12 articles)
⇒  DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 1 (22 articles)
⇒  DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 2 (24 articles)
⇒  DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3 (14 articles)
⇒  DANITES (4 articles)
⇒  DAVID A. BEDNAR (13 articles)
⇒  DAVID O. MCKAY (6 articles)
⇒  DAVID R. STONE (1 articles)
⇒  DAVID WHITMER (1 articles)
⇒  DELBERT L. STAPLEY (1 articles)
⇒  DESERET NEWS (2 articles)
⇒  DIETER F. UCHTDORF (2 articles)
⇒  DNA (23 articles)
⇒  DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS (8 articles)
⇒  DON JESSE (2 articles)
⇒  EMMA SMITH (4 articles)
⇒  ENSIGN PEAK (1 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON FOUNDATION (31 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 1 (35 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 10 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 11 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 12 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 13 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 14 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 15 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 16 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 17 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 18 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 19 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 2 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 20 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 21 (13 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 3 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 4 (24 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 5 (23 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 6 (24 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 7 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 8 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMON OPINION - SECTION 9 (26 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 10 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 11 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 12 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 13 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 14 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 15 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 16 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 17 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 18 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 19 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 2 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 20 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 21 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 22 (24 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 23 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 24 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 25 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 26 (28 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 3 (26 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 4 (24 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 5 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 6 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 7 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 8 (25 articles)
⇒  EX-MORMONISM SECTION 9 (26 articles)
⇒  EXCOMMUNICATION AND COURTS OF LOVE (18 articles)
⇒  EZRA TAFT BENSON - SECTION 1 (7 articles)
⇒  EZRA TAFT BENSON - SECTION 2 (2 articles)
⇒  FACIAL HAIR (6 articles)
⇒  FAIR / MADD - APOLOGETICS - SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  FAIR / MADD - APOLOGETICS - SECTION 2 (31 articles)
⇒  FAITH PROMOTING RUMORS (11 articles)
⇒  FARMS / NEAL A. MAXWELL INSTITUTE (23 articles)
⇒  FIRST VISION - SECTION 1 (19 articles)
⇒  FIRST VISION - SECTION 2 (3 articles)
⇒  FOOD STORAGE (3 articles)
⇒  FUNDAMENTALIST LDS (7 articles)
⇒  GENERAL AUTHORITIES (25 articles)
⇒  GENERAL CONFERENCE (11 articles)
⇒  GENERAL NEWS (5 articles)
⇒  GEORGE P. LEE (1 articles)
⇒  GORDON B. HINCKLEY - SECTION 1 (23 articles)
⇒  GORDON B. HINCKLEY - SECTION 2 (20 articles)
⇒  GORDON B. HINCKLEY - SECTION 3 (22 articles)
⇒  GRANT PALMER (7 articles)
⇒  GUNNISON MASSACRE (1 articles)
⇒  H. DAVID BURTON (2 articles)
⇒  HAROLD B. LEE (1 articles)
⇒  HATE MAIL I RECEIVE (22 articles)
⇒  HAUNS MILL (2 articles)
⇒  HBO BIG LOVE (12 articles)
⇒  HEBER C. KIMBALL (4 articles)
⇒  HELEN RADKEY (17 articles)
⇒  HENRY B. EYRING (4 articles)
⇒  HOLIDAYS (12 articles)
⇒  HOME AND VISITING TEACHING (8 articles)
⇒  HOWARD W. HUNTER (1 articles)
⇒  HUGH NIBLEY (11 articles)
⇒  HYMNS (6 articles)
⇒  INTERVIEWS IN MORMONISM (14 articles)
⇒  JAMES E. FAUST (8 articles)
⇒  JEFF LINDSAY (6 articles)
⇒  JEFFERY R. HOLLAND (26 articles)
⇒  JEFFREY MELDRUM (1 articles)
⇒  JEFFREY S. NIELSEN (11 articles)
⇒  JOHN GEE (1 articles)
⇒  JOHN L. LUND (2 articles)
⇒  JOHN TAYLOR (1 articles)
⇒  JOSEPH F. SMITH (1 articles)
⇒  JOSEPH FIELDING SMITH (6 articles)
⇒  JOSEPH SITATI (1 articles)
⇒  JOSEPH SMITH - POLYGAMY - SECTION 1 (24 articles)
⇒  JOSEPH SMITH - POLYGAMY - SECTION 2 (18 articles)
⇒  JOSEPH SMITH - PROPHECY (8 articles)
⇒  JOSEPH SMITH - SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  JOSEPH SMITH - SECTION 2 (24 articles)
⇒  JOSEPH SMITH - SECTION 3 (23 articles)
⇒  JOSEPH SMITH - SECTION 4 (27 articles)
⇒  JOSEPH SMITH - SEER STONES (7 articles)
⇒  JOSEPH SMITH - WORSHIP (13 articles)
⇒  JUDAISM (3 articles)
⇒  JULIE B. BECK (5 articles)
⇒  KERRY SHIRTS (6 articles)
⇒  KINDERHOOK PLATES (6 articles)
⇒  KIRTLAND BANK (7 articles)
⇒  KIRTLAND EGYPTIAN PAPERS (17 articles)
⇒  L. TOM PERRY (4 articles)
⇒  LAMANITE PLACEMENT PROGRAM (3 articles)
⇒  LAMANITES - SECTION 1 (31 articles)
⇒  LDS CHURCH - SECTION 1 (17 articles)
⇒  LDS CHURCH OFFICE BUILDING (10 articles)
⇒  LDS SOCIAL SERVICES (4 articles)
⇒  LGBT - AND MORMONISM - SECTION 1 (31 articles)
⇒  LYNN A. MICKELSEN (2 articles)
⇒  LYNN G. ROBBINS (1 articles)
⇒  M. RUSSELL BALLARD (11 articles)
⇒  MARK E. PETERSON (6 articles)
⇒  MARK HOFFMAN (13 articles)
⇒  MARLIN JENSEN (3 articles)
⇒  MARRIOTT (2 articles)
⇒  MARTIN HARRIS (4 articles)
⇒  MASONS (16 articles)
⇒  MELCHIZEDEK/AARONIC PRIESTHOOD (8 articles)
⇒  MERRILL J. BATEMAN (2 articles)
⇒  MICHAEL R. ASH - SECTION 1 (15 articles)
⇒  MICHAEL R. ASH - SECTION 2 (7 articles)
⇒  MISSIONARIES - SECTION 1 (26 articles)
⇒  MISSIONARIES - SECTION 2 (24 articles)
⇒  MISSIONARIES - SECTION 3 (25 articles)
⇒  MISSIONARIES - SECTION 4 (24 articles)
⇒  MISSIONARIES - SECTION 5 (25 articles)
⇒  MISSIONARIES - SECTION 6 (8 articles)
⇒  MITT ROMNEY - SECTION 1 (24 articles)
⇒  MITT ROMNEY - SECTION 2 (21 articles)
⇒  MITT ROMNEY - SECTION 3 (12 articles)
⇒  MORE GOOD FOUNDATION (1 articles)
⇒  MORMON CELEBRITIES (13 articles)
⇒  MORMON CHURCH HISTORY (8 articles)
⇒  MORMON CHURCH PR (13 articles)
⇒  MORMON CLASSES (1 articles)
⇒  MORMON DOCTRINE (30 articles)
⇒  MORMON FUNERALS (12 articles)
⇒  MORMON GARMENTS - SECTION 1 (19 articles)
⇒  MORMON HANDCARTS (8 articles)
⇒  MORMON MARRIAGE EXCLUSIONS (1 articles)
⇒  MORMON MEMBERSHIP (29 articles)
⇒  MORMON MONEY - SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  MORMON MONEY - SECTION 2 (18 articles)
⇒  MORMON POLITICAL ISSUES (5 articles)
⇒  MORMON RACISM (18 articles)
⇒  MORMON TEMPLE CHANGES (15 articles)
⇒  MORMON TEMPLES - SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  MORMON TEMPLES - SECTION 2 (25 articles)
⇒  MORMON TEMPLES - SECTION 3 (25 articles)
⇒  MORMON TEMPLES - SECTION 4 (25 articles)
⇒  MORMON VISITOR CENTERS (9 articles)
⇒  MORMON WARDS AND STAKE CENTERS (1 articles)
⇒  MORMONS IN THE UNITED KINGDOM (0 articles)
⇒  MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE (23 articles)
⇒  MURPHY TRANSCRIPT (1 articles)
⇒  NATALIE R. COLLINS (11 articles)
⇒  NAUVOO (2 articles)
⇒  NAUVOO EXPOSITOR (1 articles)
⇒  NEAL A. MAXWELL - SECTION 1 (1 articles)
⇒  NEIL L. ANDERSEN - SECTION 1 (2 articles)
⇒  OBEDIENCE - PAY, PRAY, OBEY (15 articles)
⇒  OBJECT LESSONS (9 articles)
⇒  OLIVER COWDREY (5 articles)
⇒  ORRIN HATCH (5 articles)
⇒  PARLEY P. PRATT (11 articles)
⇒  PATRIARCHAL BLESSING (5 articles)
⇒  PAUL H. DUNN (5 articles)
⇒  PBS DOCUMENTARY THE MORMONS (17 articles)
⇒  PERSECUTION (9 articles)
⇒  PIONEER DAY (3 articles)
⇒  PLAN OF SALVATION (3 articles)
⇒  POLYGAMY - SECTION 1 (26 articles)
⇒  POLYGAMY - SECTION 2 (24 articles)
⇒  POLYGAMY - SECTION 3 (14 articles)
⇒  PRIESTHOOD BLESSINGS (1 articles)
⇒  PRIMARY (1 articles)
⇒  PROCLAMATIONS (1 articles)
⇒  PROPOSITION 8 (17 articles)
⇒  PROPOSITION 8 COMMENTS (9 articles)
⇒  QUENTIN L. COOK (5 articles)
⇒  RELIEF SOCIETY (15 articles)
⇒  RESIGNATION PROCESS (24 articles)
⇒  RICHARD G. HINCKLEY (2 articles)
⇒  RICHARD G. SCOTT (7 articles)
⇒  RICHARD LYMAN BUSHMAN (11 articles)
⇒  RICHARD TURLEY (1 articles)
⇒  ROBERT D. HALES (5 articles)
⇒  ROBERT L. MILLET (6 articles)
⇒  RODNEY L. MELDRUM (8 articles)
⇒  ROYAL SKOUSEN (1 articles)
⇒  RUSSELL M. NELSON (12 articles)
⇒  SACRAMENT MEETING (11 articles)
⇒  SALT LAKE TRIBUNE (0 articles)
⇒  SEMINARY (4 articles)
⇒  SERVICE AND CHARITY (20 articles)
⇒  SHERI L. DEW (1 articles)
⇒  SHIELDS RESEARCH - MORMON APOLOGETICS (4 articles)
⇒  SIDNEY RIGDON (7 articles)
⇒  SIMON SOUTHERTON (29 articles)
⇒  SPALDING MANUSCRIPT (6 articles)
⇒  SPENCER W. KIMBALL (10 articles)
⇒  STEVE BENSON - SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  STEVE BENSON - SECTION 10 (25 articles)
⇒  STEVE BENSON - SECTION 11 (27 articles)
⇒  STEVE BENSON - SECTION 12 (25 articles)
⇒  STEVE BENSON - SECTION 13 (25 articles)
⇒  STEVE BENSON - SECTION 14 (18 articles)
⇒  STEVE BENSON - SECTION 2 (25 articles)
⇒  STEVE BENSON - SECTION 3 (25 articles)
⇒  STEVE BENSON - SECTION 4 (26 articles)
⇒  STEVE BENSON - SECTION 5 (25 articles)
⇒  STEVE BENSON - SECTION 6 (26 articles)
⇒  STEVE BENSON - SECTION 7 (25 articles)
⇒  STEVE BENSON - SECTION 8 (25 articles)
⇒  STEVE BENSON - SECTION 9 (25 articles)
⇒  STORIES - SECTION 1 (1 articles)
⇒  SUNSTONE FOUNDATION (2 articles)
⇒  SURVEILLANCE (SCMC) (9 articles)
⇒  TAD R. CALLISTER (1 articles)
⇒  TAL BACHMAN - SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  TAL BACHMAN - SECTION 2 (25 articles)
⇒  TAL BACHMAN - SECTION 3 (25 articles)
⇒  TAL BACHMAN - SECTION 4 (25 articles)
⇒  TAL BACHMAN - SECTION 5 (25 articles)
⇒  TAL BACHMAN - SECTION 6 (25 articles)
⇒  TAL BACHMAN - SECTION 7 (5 articles)
⇒  TALKS - SECTION 1 (1 articles)
⇒  TEMPLE WEDDINGS (6 articles)
⇒  TEMPLES - NAMES (1 articles)
⇒  THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE (1 articles)
⇒  THE SINGLE WARDS (3 articles)
⇒  THOMAS S. MONSON - SECTION 1 (25 articles)
⇒  TIME (4 articles)
⇒  TITHING - SECTION 1 (26 articles)
⇒  TITHING - SECTION 2 (21 articles)
⇒  UNNANOUNCED, UNINVITED AND UNWELCOME (28 articles)
⇒  UTAH LIGHTHOUSE MINISTRY (3 articles)
⇒  VAN HALE (16 articles)
⇒  VAUGHN J. FEATHERSTONE (1 articles)
⇒  VIDEOS (28 articles)
⇒  WARD CLEANING (2 articles)
⇒  WARREN SNOW (1 articles)
⇒  WELFARE - SECTION 1 (0 articles)
⇒  WENDY L. WATSON (4 articles)
⇒  WHITE AND DELIGHTSOME (11 articles)
⇒  WILFORD WOODRUFF (6 articles)
⇒  WILLIAM LAW (1 articles)
⇒  WILLIAM SCHRYVER (5 articles)
⇒  WILLIAM WINES PHELPS (3 articles)
⇒  WOMEN AND MORMONISM - SECTION 1 (24 articles)
⇒  WOMEN AND MORMONISM - SECTION 2 (25 articles)
⇒  WOMEN AND MORMONISM - SECTION 3 (17 articles)
⇒  WORD OF WISDOM (6 articles)

Articles posted here are © by their respective owners when designated.

Website © 2005-2011

Compiled With: Caligra 2.0.2

HOSTED BY







Light-Weight Point Of Sale Management Software

Do you sell Avon? Stampin-Up? Scentsy? Mary-Kay? Comic books? Trinkets? Widgets?

AvoBase does them all AND can do them all at the same time! Sell your product, track your customers and your taxes - all in one easy to use application.

Download FREE today at AvoBase.com.


 

Containing 4,827 Articles Spanning 341 Topics  
Ex-Mormon News, Stories And Recovery  
Online Since January 1, 2005  
PLEASE NOTE: If you have reached this page from an outside source such as an Internet Search or forum referral, please note that this page (the one you just landed on) is an archive containing articles on "DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3". This website, The Mormon Curtain - is a website that blogs the Ex-Mormon world. You can read The Mormon Curtain FAQ to understand the purpose of this website.
⇒  CLICK HERE to visit the main page of The Mormon Curtain.
  DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3
Total Articles: 14
Daniel C. Peterson, Mormon Apologist and Mormon Secret Service Agent (SCMC). Daniel is the leading Apologist for the Mormon owned and operated "Neal Maxwell Institute", also known as "Foundation For Ancient Research And Mormon Studies" or FARMS.
topic image
Friday, Oct 22, 2010, at 08:49 AM
Daniel Peterson Made Me What I Am Today
Original Author(s): JoD3:360
DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3   -Guid-
It was him saying on PBS that Joseph Smith used a stone in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon. I was taught all my life that that was an antimormon lie, and as far as I was concerned the second most evil anti mormon lie of all time.

It was his words that caused me to google seerstones.

It was the result of googling seerstones that for the first time in my life I had to seriously consider that the church was not true.

So, thanks Daniel C. Peterson! Until that day, I knew without a doubt that the church was absolutely true.
topic image
Monday, Oct 25, 2010, at 07:42 AM
A Cat In A Hat? Nope, A Rock In A Chat
Original Author(s): Mahonri
DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3   -Guid-
Welcome to Mormon.org chat.
A missionary will be with you shortly.
Agent [July] is ready to assist you.
Agent [Diana] has joined the chat.

Me: July. Is that boy or girl?
Diana: hola
Diana: We are sister missionaries.
July: girl
Me: Hi, OK, two girls.
Diana: Yes
Diana: How are you today?
Me: A question on the book of mormon after reading about it. OK? (and reading some of it too)
Diana: OK
Me: I was told of translating it with a urim and thummim an that is what was used.
Me: Is that how it was done?
Diana: Yes through revelation and the power of God
Diana: ANd tell us how do you get the Book of Mormon?
Me: Joseph smith stuff says this urim and thummum but I heard a PBS show of a Bishop Peterson that said he used a stone in a hat. Black Magic? Which is right?
Me: Got the book from a friend.
Me: Mr Peterson is a mormon Bishop which I guess is pretty high up. So I listened and he said that is how it was done.
Diana: Good Is he a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Me: His story and the Joseph Smith stuff are way different.
Me: He teaches at BYU and is a mormon bishop.
Diana: You know what there are many dofferent stories about it but what is relly important is that the Book is another testament of Jesus Christ
Me: From what I saw a fat guy with glasses.
Me: Which story is the truth?
Me: Is this really black magic with peepstones and stuff like that?
Diana: David we as missionaries teach the basic beleives of the church
Diana: We invite people to come unto Christ
Me: Isn't joseph smiths story and how he did this a basic belief?
Diana: We can teach you more about it
Diana: acctually there are missionaries they can visit you and teach you more
Me: If he did not do it like he said how can any of it be true? You don't lie and expect people to believe you are telling the truth. How did he translate this stuff?
Me: Is this Bishop peterson right? Was it with magic rocks in a hat?
Diana: David something is really helpful when we read the scriptures
Diana: is to pray
Me: Or a rock?
Diana: Have you ever prayed
Diana: ?
Me: Forget praying for a minute. Is the rock in a hat real or not?
Diana: We can not forget the basics
Me: It is history, is that how it happened?
Diana: that is what help us too understand
Me: You don't know, is that it?
Me: How much more basic can you get than how this was done?
Diana: We told you at the begining
Diana: throug the power of God
Diana: Do you want us to send this missionaries to your home?
Me: Diana, you are not reading my question. Did this book get done with the urim and thummim or with a magic rock in a hat like this bYU gu says?
Me: If you can't answer the question why would I want missionaries to visit?
Diana: With the urim and tummim
Diana: The Book of Mormon explain that at the very begining
Diana: Before the introduction
Diana: So probably you want to read the Book from the begining
Me: If it was with the urim and thummim(UM?), why does this Bishop and others say it was with a magic rock in a hat?
Me: He is obviously a mormon authority being on PBS and all. Why is his story different?
Diana: Well we dont know David people said different things
Diana: but you can find out the trith by your self
Diana: but you need an open heart and mind
Diana: We recomend you to keep reading and pray
Diana: But have a wonderful day
Me: I am finding out the truth by myself. Your church magazine even says a rock in a hat. So does oliver cowdery.
Me: A google search turns up a lot on it.
Me: Why isn't the mormon book accurate?
Diana: Just ask God
Me: Ask God, in a matter of history?
Diana: he has the wisdom you need
Diana: He knows everything
Me: You don't really know how it was done, is that it?
July:1 Nephi 11: 17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.

Me: Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.

Me: A David Whitmer who wrote for Joseph Smith says it was a rock in a hat. Black Magic comes from the Devil. Your belief is that this is from
Diana: You are right: " Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man"
Me: God? using magic?
Me: I think someone here is mistaking the devil for God. I don't think it is me.
Diana: OK David have a good day
Agent [Diana] has left the chat.
The chat session has ended.
topic image
Tuesday, Dec 7, 2010, at 07:13 AM
Daniel C. Peterson's Fluff Piece
Original Author(s): Kevin Graham
DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3   -Guid-
The three witnesses and the reality of the Book of Mormon

Serious critics of the Book of Mormon must neutralize the testimonies of the witnesses to the golden plates.

This, however, is not easy. (It may be impossible.) Largely thanks to the meticulous research of Professor Richard Lloyd Anderson, we know a great deal about them and about the six decades, both when they were dedicated followers of Joseph Smith and after they had been alienated from him and his church for many years, during which they testified to the Book of Mormon. For a very long time, those seeking to discredit their testimony accused them of insanity, or of having conspired to commit fraud. In the light of Professor Anderson's work, however, neither accusation can be sustained. They were plainly sane, honest, reputable men.

Recently, the preferred method of disposing of the witnesses has been to suggest — quite falsely — that they never claimed to have literally seen or touched anything at all, or to insinuate that they were primitive and superstitious fanatics who, unlike us sophisticated moderns, could scarcely distinguish reality from fantasy. Honest, but misguided.

It seems implausible, though, to assume that the witnesses, early nineteenth-century farmers who spent their lives rising at sunrise, pulling up stumps, clearing rocks, plowing fields, sowing seeds, carefully nurturing crops, herding livestock, milking cows, digging wells, building cabins, raising barns, harvesting food, bartering (in an often cashless economy) for what they could not produce themselves, wearing clothes made from plant fibers and skins, anxiously watching the seasons, and walking or riding animals out under the weather until they retired to their beds shortly after sunset in "a world lit only by fire," were estranged from everyday reality.

It's especially unbelievable when the claim is made by people whose lives, like mine, consist to a large extent of staring at digital screens in artificially air-conditioned and artificially lit homes and offices, clothed in synthetic fibers, commuting between the two in enclosed and air-conditioned mechanical vehicles while they listen to the radio, chat on their cell phones, and fiddle with their iPods (whose inner workings are largely mysterious to them), who buy their prepackaged food (with little or no regard for the time or the season) by means of plastic cards and electronic financial transfers from artificially illuminated and air-conditioned supermarkets enmeshed in international distribution networks of which they know virtually nothing, the rhythms of whose daily lives are largely unaffected by the rising and setting of the sun. Somehow, the current generation seems ill-positioned to accuse the witnesses' generation of being out of touch with reality.

I suppose that "hallucination" might strike a skeptic as an attractive way to defang the testimony of the three witnesses, with its divine voice and its angelophany and its clearly visionary flavor. But the experience of the eight witnesses is very different, and entirely matter-of-fact. Hallucination doesn't seem to account for it well at all.

On the other hand, if it weren't for the spectacularly supernatural character of the experience of the three witnesses, a desperate skeptic might be able to dismiss the whole thing as the product, merely, of crude deception. Perhaps Joseph Smith or some other brawny frontier blacksmith (Oliver Cowdery, perhaps?) forged golden stage props with which to fool the yokels. After all, the two tiny sets of inscribed metal plates that James Jesse Strang, would-be successor to Joseph Smith, "found" in Wisconsin and Michigan between 1845 and 1849 and subsequently "translated" certainly existed, and were almost certainly frauds. (One of Strang's witnesses later testified to having helped manufacture them.) But Strang summoned no angels for public viewing, and no voice of God endorsed his "Book of the Law of the Lord."

Even Latter-day Saints may not appreciate the strength of the witness testimonies. Fortunately, though, Professor Anderson, trained in both legal reasoning at Harvard Law School and historical method through a doctorate at Berkeley, has devoted a lifetime to demonstrating the solidity of the evidence they provide. In his classic volume "Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses" — described by one of my BYU colleagues, not unreasonably, as "next to the scriptures themselves, the most faith-promoting book (he had) ever read" — and in later studies (two of which are available on the website of Brigham Young University's Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship), he has set out a deeply impressive case. I earnestly commend his work to those unfamiliar with it.
topic image
Tuesday, Dec 14, 2010, at 08:11 AM
Mormon Apologetic And Discussion Allegedly Board Wiped Thousands Of Dr. Peterson's Messages From The Board
Original Author(s): Infymus
DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3   -Guid-
So the owners of MAD swept away Dr. Peterson's history there eh? Or much of it? What's the matter Dr. Peterson, are you embarrassed by the blowhard things you have written?

How convenient of you to have your history wiped. Why should I be surprised anyway, this is how Mormons operate - and how the Mormon Church operates. Hide history. Lock things in vaults. Buy and destroy journals from Mormon pioneers that would be embarrassing today. Funnel money into the hands of members to buy embarrassing documents and have those members donate them to the Church - and into the granite vault they go, never again to see the light of day.

In in a few years, everyone associated with and Dr. Peterson himself will have plausible deniability. He wasn't speaking as a man - because his words will have been swept away. Dr. Peterson has been re baptized in the apologetic world. It is too bad that he can't clean up the rest of the Internet where he has posted his tripe, arrogant works.

I will continue to be critical of Dr. Peterson's apologetic works. As long as he continues to produce apologetic works for the Mormon Church, I will continue to vigorously document his movements in apologetics.

Why? Because Dr. Peterson continues to defend the Cult of Mormonism - and to deceive not only members but non-members - in order to continue the flow of money into the corporate coffers. As long as he continues to try and keep Mormons in the dark about the real history of the church - then he needs to be exposed, and exposed he will be.

I'm not afraid of Dr. Peterson at all. Just because he raises his arm to the square and threatens everyone with litigation means nothing.

Who is Dr. Peterson?

Is a Mormon Apologist that works at BYU as a professor.

Works for, writes for, or is associated with for the Neil Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS).

Is paid directly or indirectly by the LDS Church to publish Mormon apologetic works, and even if he isn't paid, the LDS Church looks the other way while Dr. Peterson posts tens of thousands of messages on forums as a Mormon Apologist - while being employed as a professor at BYU.

Is an admitted agent for the SCMC (past, unknown if current).

Has written articles for both FAIR and NWI (formerly FARMS).

Posts an incalculable amount of messages on Internet Forums, including MAD, MDB, and various other websites (including but not limited to blogs and online news agency comment sections). Please note that as of December, 2010 - the Mormon Apologetic And Discussion board wiped thousands of Dr. Peterson's messages from the board - although both MAD and Dr. Peterson deny this.

Dr. Peterson writes:
The charge is both deeply serious and absolutely false. I had nothing to do with the shutting down of MADB. I don't know what occasioned it, and have had no input on it
He has made himself a public figure.

He has placed himself and his works into the public where it can be read by anyone.

He has written articles defending the LDS Church on open public forums.

He has openly attacked critics of the LDS Church on open public forums.

He has attacked critics of the LDS Church in private emails, and then had those emails published on Mormon Apologetic Sites (see SHIELDS). Those private emails have caused prospective employer rejections which have resulted in loss of income.

Is any of this slander? No, it is absolute fact.

So, when critics of the LDS Church are critical of Dr. Peterson and his writings, Dr. Peterson cries foul and that his good name is being slandered - and threatens not only to take down websites, but go after everyone that posts on them.

Again, Dr. Peterson writes:
I will go after the board, and I will go after each and every one of those who have publicly slandered me in this matter to the extent that the law allows. Enough is enough.
Bring it Dr. Peterson. Keep posting on the Internet. Keep publishing apologetic articles. I will always be watching you. You haven't got a case.
topic image
Friday, Dec 17, 2010, at 07:21 AM
Daniel Peterson, Director Of Outreach For The Maxwell Institute, Returns To The Forums
Original Author(s): Infymus
DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3   -Guid-
Dr. Peterson is back to posting on MAD.
First of all, I would like to confirm all of the rumors that have been circulated over at the Great and Spacious Trailer Park© (Mormon Discussions) and elsewhere in the fever swamps during the past few weeks:

Yes, I was indeed directed to go silent by the Packer Faction. The orders were transmitted through the new radioisotope-powered XL-480 device implanted at the base of my skull. (Eat your hearts out, fellow special operatives!) Yes, I really engaged in an unethical and probably illegal effort to illicitly undermine the defense in a prominent federal criminal trial. My shameless corruption and depravity are boundless. Yes, thousands upon thousands of my despicable and incriminating posts here were deleted by order of the First Presidency and/or a federal judge and/or my wife and/or Manny, Mo, and Curley Joe. Yes, I’m being silenced by the Brethren because they’re embarrassed at my antics and disapprove of me. Yes, I’m being silenced by the Brethren because they’re about to call me as a General Authority. And, yes, I was abducted by lesbian neo-Nazi biker chicks recently landed from the planet Zarkon.

But I’m baack. Sort of. It simply seems to me that the ability to announce new publications, symposia, firesides, and that sort of thing on a free public message board is too useful to surrender. Particularly in view of my role as Director of Outreach for the Maxwell Institute. So I’m intending to use this forum occasionally in order to make such announcements. (We'll see whether anybody actually reads this "Pundit" forum.)
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topi...

I've got to admit, this did make me chuckle.
topic image
Wednesday, Mar 2, 2011, at 07:50 AM
Dan Peterson's Advice: "Put It On The Shelf"
Original Author(s): Kevin Graham
DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3   -Guid-
These are from the notes from his fireside:
Question: I’m LDS, but have pretty much lost my testimony over contradictions between the Church’s “tightly-correlated data points” and history. I continue to go to church because of a bishopric member I can talk to about these issues. In the past, my bishop was a nice guy, but completely ill-equipped to discuss or deal with these things. I’ve tried FAIR, MADB, etc., but nothing really helps much. My question is: what is the Church doing to improve this state of things, and are things getting better in this regard?

Answer: I can empathize with you. When I was younger, I was thrown for a loop over an alleged denial of Oliver Cowdery’s testimony in a pamphlet printed in Tiffin, Ohio. I couldn’t find anybody who could talk about it, and it seemed that there was no effective response. With the passage of time, this was completely discredited as a fraud, but I still remember the panic and feelings of betrayal involved with this. People really do need to put difficult items “on the shelf” and not panic in the meantime as they patiently and faithfully work through their assumptions, issues, etc. People who are struggling really need to go back to the basics, too. A French noblewoman once made the comment about St. Denis, who purportedly walked 100 steps after his execution by decapitation, carrying his head under his arm: “In such a promenade, it is the first step that is important.” Meaning, if the foundational things happened, the rest is just details. If the Father and Son appeared to Joseph Smith, if resurrected angels really ordained Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to the priesthood, if the Book of Mormon people, places, and events were real, if resurrected angels really appeared in the Kirtland Temple, etc. ---- then the reasons for the priesthood ban, polygamy, varying First Vision accounts, etc. are interesting details. Whether St. Denis walked one mile or a hundred is really unimportant --- the real question is whether he walked at all.

Regarding what is being done and whether things are improving, some of us are trying to do just that. FAIR, FARMS/NAMI, etc. are striving to make information and arguments accessible. The real key is helping members who have emotional reactions and feelings of betrayal when they encounter information that contradicts their assumptions or limited understanding of things.
Dan picks something that was an obvious forgery to represent the cause of struggling testimonies, and by pointing out the forgery, insinuates to believers that this is the case with all "problems" they have after uncovering disturbing facts. All they need to do is "put it on the shelf" and as time passes, it will all be shown to be lies and deception.

Silly. I never even heard of this forged document and Dan, who has the developed the apologetic dissonance of the world's finest defense attorney, wants us to believe his testimony was on the ropes over this? Really. If Cowdery said something like this, he could merely pass it off as Satan's way of getting to him or whatever. Certainly it isn't as strong as the evidence against Joseph Smith's ability to translate ancient documents, which doesn't seem to phase Dan in the slightest.

But I found the "put it on the shelf" advice interesting because that is how they get people to stay in the Church. In other words, shut your minds off and wait for us to come up with some BS apologetic that you'll then be bludgeoned with until you accept it.... until it is disproved as nonsense and then you'll have to put it on the shelf yet again until we can come up with something that sticks.

Well, I eventually realized I didn't need FAIR or FARMS to come up with apologetic excuses for me. I have a brain too, and my search for truth is no longer tainted by an apologetic need to invent "truth" just for the sake of maintaining belief. I don't need people like Dan to wax eloquently with me by telling me the hard facts I have uncovered are merely my "assumptions" and my "issues."

Edit: The question also reveals the utter failure of MADB, FAIR, FARMS, etc. This poor guy is wanting serious help and Dan has nothing to offer except "wait and see."
topic image
Tuesday, Mar 22, 2011, at 07:55 AM
Peterson Is Really A Piece Of Work
Original Author(s): Makurosu
DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3   -Guid-
http://www.mormontimes.com/article/20...
"If there is no life after death and no loving and merciful God, horrific moral evils and devastating natural disasters have the last word."

"It can easily sound heartless (or pie-in-the-sky) to say it, but, from the standpoint of eternity, even death in a tsunami may someday come to seem a relatively small thing."
I can hardly bring myself to read Mormon publications anymore. I see now that he wrote that article just to say that he isn't going to answer the question he raises, because he only has 700 words which he needs to use to attack atheists. Then he makes a point that not just atheists hold:

"Some atheists seek to solve the problem of evil by dissolving it. There is no God, they say, no purpose in the universe, no meaning to the deaths of those killed by child rapists, plague viruses and earthquakes — and, thus, no theological "problem.""

Well, that's the position that most moderate theists hold. Not that there is no God, but that not everything that happens in the world happens for a reason. Sometimes it's just a random event - like this tsunami. It's terrible, but it happens and it's not God's or anyone else's fault, which is what Peterson would imply by putting God in charge of everything that happens in the world.

Essentially he's creating a false dilemma. Either you believe in a world without randomness where everything happens for a reason or you believe in a world ruled entirely by randomness where there is no morality and no salvation.
topic image
Friday, Apr 8, 2011, at 01:03 PM
Perhaps It Isn't Just That They Fear Dwindling Numbers
Original Author(s): Jesus Smith
DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3   -Guid-
"The Internet aids missionary effort" Published: Thursday, April 7, 2011 5:00 a.m. MDT, by Dan Peterson:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/70...

Perhaps it isn't just that they fear dwindling numbers...

DCP quotes Ballard, who wrote:

"The challenge is that there are too many people participating in conversations about the church for our church personnel to converse with and respond to individually."

Is this an admission that there are too many critics now? Or is it that they realize they are no longer in control of information and they are trying to find ways to get it in back in their control? silly cult.

To get this control, DCP's response is to put up the scholars testify page? How meager. Just more testimonies against actual fact and data. Except the trick is the testimony is from more "qualified" sources that are easier for lay members to trust when they themselves fear going after facts.

Then he suggests that "ordinary members" use the "more good foundation" website where they, the "unscholared", can testify. More of the same for the proletariat.

DCP wrote: "It's time to reclaim the conversation about us online, to dispel misperceptions..."

What he really means by reclaiming the conversation is to divert it from fact-based history and science to touchy-feely testimonies as the LDS main argument. DCP doesn't want to get LDS more vocal on facts. He wants to change the subject.

The risk is encouraging members to go online and confront "misperceptions". That opens them to anti-mo info.

But if LDSinc can keep members in "testify" only mode, and not in factual arguments, they can still attract and keep the fools that are driven to belief on feelings.

I have now had in-depth conversations with three contributors of mormonscholarstestimonkeys. Every one of them backed down after a good academic discussion and fell back to essentially saying, "well, it just works for me, but I agree that maybe pushing it as the only solution for the rest of the world is egocentric."
topic image
Friday, Apr 8, 2011, at 01:04 PM
Daniel Peterson Admits The Mormon Church Is Not The Fastest Growing
Original Author(s): jw the inquizzinator
DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3   -Guid-
"The Internet aids missionary effort" Published: Thursday, April 7, 2011 5:00 a.m. MDT, by Dan Peterson:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/70...

Snippets:

"I've lived in Utah now for slightly more than half my life. And not merely in Utah but in a very Mormon neighborhood in a very Mormon county, teaching at Brigham Young University. So, whenever I've heard the exhortation "Every member a missionary," I've wondered what to do. Non-Mormons are a rather exotic breed around here...."

"...There's no limit to the opportunities that the Internet offers us to "think globally" while "acting locally." Sitting at home, we can reach the Australian Outback, West Africa and the Scottish Highlands with our testimonies as easily as the town next door...."

"...It's time to reclaim the conversation about us online, to dispel misperceptions, to use the Internet for the gathering of those who will hear the Savior's voice and come unto him...."

"...Today, we have been allotted tools for sharing the gospel of which Alma could never have dreamed."

"But we may have become complacent. Don't we send out full-time missionaries? Isn't that enough? Aren't we "the fastest growing religion"?"

"Actually, we're not. Church growth has been falling for many years, and our current rate of missionary success is the lowest it's been for decades. The harvest is great, but the laborers are still too few...."

Yes, Danny the internet is a great tool. And not only Alma, but Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, would be amazed at what ol' everyday people can discover on it. For example, any lds member could google "Mountain Meadows Massacre", or "death of Parley P. Pratt", or "Utah statehood", or "blacks and lds priesthood", or "Jospeph Smith + occult", or "Joseph Smith arrest records"....or many, many other items of interest to the average, every day lds member.

"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry."....Thomas Paine.
topic image
Thursday, May 26, 2011, at 12:07 PM
Denial C. Peterson Rides Again - Deseret News: "Smiths Were [Not] Slackers"
Original Author(s): SLCabbie
DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3   -Guid-
Denial C. Peterson Rides Again... D-News: "Smiths Were [Not] Slackers"

Warning, incoming high speed bullchip advisory...

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/70...

Apologetics 101: First we build our strawman...
The character and claims of Joseph Smith are fundamental to the claims of the church he founded. Knowing this, critics of the Prophet have contended for more than a century and a half that he and his family were the kind of people from whom nobody would want to buy a used car, much less receive a plan of salvation.
Uh Danny, that metaphor is really weak. There were no used cars in JS's time.... And the charge should probably read, "The Smiths were not someone to be trusted with guardianship of anyone's minor children."
The Smiths' farming techniques, it seems, were virtually a textbook illustration of the best recommendations of the day, showing them to have been, by contemporary standards, intelligent, skilled and responsible people. And they were very hard-working.
Uh, what about the "glass looking trial"? I don't find glass looking or peepstone-peering in the Farmer's Almanac... The trial on that charge is a fact, as proven from a documented court record...
In order to pay for their farm, the Smiths were obliged to hire themselves out as day-laborers...along the way, they produced between 1,000 and 7,000 pounds of maple sugar annually.
Maple syrup harvesting doubtless suited them; they could work a few weeks in the winter, boil down the sap, and have some ready cash...

And if the farm was so renumerative and successful, why did they leave the Palmyra area?

Too, Dr. Peterson, what about the Kirtland "anti-banking" scandal? The one where they used silver half dollars on top of lead and rocks in the safety deposit boxes to establish credibility and collateral? The scandal which, as LDS historian Richard Bushman noted, "Troubled Joseph Smith so much that he just had to do it. He had to leave town." (probably not quite verbatim, but it's from the PBS special, "The Mormons").

For actual insight into Joseph Smith's character, the William Law interiew offers the most credible detailing of the inner circle of church leadership. The story of Emma's role is particularly revealing (Why, Daniel, if the church is true, didn't Emma accompany the Saints to Utah?). And this was long after the Hurlbut era...

http://mrm.org/topics/documents-speec...

Revisionist history sellers, thy name is Mormon apologetics...

Can't blame 'em I guess; pays better than honest car salesmen make...
topic image
Friday, May 27, 2011, at 12:24 PM
DCP Article Demonstrating The Smiths Were Hard Workers
Original Author(s): zeezrom
DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3   -Guid-
DCP refers to an article written by Susan Black and Charles Tate in 1993 called, "The Joseph Smith, Sr., Family: Farmers of the Genesee"(1), which is noted by DCP as a "path-breaking" article, providing "hard evidence" and delivering a "serious blow" to allegations made in the Hurlbut-Howe(2) affidavits that claim the Smiths were lazy. The evidence is founded on the work done by Donald L. Enders, a senior curator at the Museum of Church History and Art in Salt Lake City.

Mr. Enders was apparently able to demonstrate solid evidence of hard work done by the Smiths using the following materials at hand:
  • land and tax records

  • farm account books and related correspondence

  • soil surveys

  • horticultural studies

  • surveys of historic buildings

  • archaeological reports

  • interviews with agricultural historians and other specialists

From this research, Enders concluded ("on questions of testable fact") that the Hurlbut-Howe affidavits cannot be trusted. The evidence shows that many trees and rocks had to be cleared from the Smith family farm site without modern tools and machinery. It is also shown that the Smiths had to find odd jobs (in addition to keeping up the property) to pay rent. It was also found that the Smith's property appraised at a higher value than their neighbors, including the lazy bozos who wrote the affidavits. We can safely conclude using DCP's own words: The Smiths turn out to not be the "local trash" in the community after all. Thank God!

My response to this is not one of surprise. I would suspect that all people that worked farms in that era were hard working folks. If you were not hard working, you didn't survive.

Luckily for Joseph Smith, he was able to find a desk job later on without having the money for a proper education.

I would actually like to see more of Ender's work. I would bet his research was pretty fascinating.

Sources:

1. Susan Easton Black and Charles D. Tate, Jr., editors, "Joseph Smith: The Prophet, the Man," Provo: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1993, 213-25

2. Howe, Eber D., "Mormonism Unvailed". 1834
topic image
Friday, Jun 24, 2011, at 07:57 AM
Daniel In Denial's Den?
Original Author(s): Stumbling
DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3   -Guid-
'But I also realized that the Book of Mormon cautions us powerfully against racism and undue ethnic pride.'
(Peterson - Mormon Times article 23rd June 2011)

'21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.'

2nd Nephi 5: Cautioning us powerfully against racism?
'Have a young man read it. “We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally...''
Current Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3 - Cautioning young men powerfully against racism?
'Accordingly, all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color.'
Official Declaration From 1978 - Did the Prophets before 1978 miss the powerful cautioning against racism in the Book of Mormon?
topic image
Monday, Aug 22, 2011, at 07:24 AM
Daniel Peterson Talks To Mormon Stories About His Career As An LDS Apologist And Much More (4-Part Youtube Video)
Original Author(s): Chino_Blanco
DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3   -Guid-
http://mormonstories.org/?p=1904

FYI: Part 1 of 4 can be safely skipped (it's mostly biographical)

Notes on Part 2:

Leo Strauss gets a mention, I'm assuming he's a fan. DCP's position on I/P issue sounds sane for a conservative LDS. FARMS not out to prove anything, more interested in establishing enough plausibility so that "You don't have to crucify your mind to be a believer." Then holds up BOM witnesses as good evidence after briefly mentioning "cumulative" evidence that FARMS has gathered. Hmmm. The segue seems like a leap back to a time prior to any accumulation and back to arguing murky competing claims. Interested in having someone try to make a set of gold plates in order to understand the process (which strikes me as a not particularly useful or interesting undertaking). He sees similarities between Mohammed and Joseph Smith, ponders that no evidence outside both of their subjective experience, except for the plates. Ahhh, now I understand why nailing down existence of material proof of plates matters to DCP, it's the only distinction between Islam and Mormon origins.

Now getting into literary crit. Analysis suffers from DCP's speciality which is not really applicable to 19th century American production. Fallback is benefit of the doubt, God of the gaps position.

On to Joseph Smith polygamy. In isolation, it makes JS look bad. Argues our POV is warped by lack of personal familiarity with JS and possibility he badly handled introduction of the principle due to radical nature of the commandment. "If JS is pretending to be pious, man, he's good."

DCP comes out as proponent of inoculation. Members need to read more. Somehow people get that old in the church and then all of a sudden they find something that rattles them, info that's been published in LDS mags. On the other hand, "it is true that we don't always tell the whole story." JS Papers, MMM books, RSR, are a step forward and sign of maturity.

Dan W. starts naming names of researchers (Quinn, Palmer, Brooks) who've been attacked by apologists and asks DCP what's up with that. DCP says he's very "libertarian" in allowing other apologists to publish (and seems like he's distancing himself from their attacks).

Dan W. asking some important questions now about editorial policy at Maxwell Institute/FARMS. Tension between DCP's competing "bully pulpit" and "free exchange of ideas" positions regarding the apologetic enterprise. "Can we improve our tone? Probably so." But DCP says he's held back nasty personal details regarding his opponents because he's such a swell guy. Weak but in line with DCP defense of rhetorical back-and-forth over cleaner scholarly approach.

MMM fascinating because perpetrators were "good people" before and after the massacre. Brings up Hannah Arendt. Kinda creepy in the context b/c it leaves open the question of whether DCP or Mormons ought to presume to disavow such atrocities.

On to DNA. Iceland genetic trail is lost. Compare to Mesoamérica? (wow, unconvincing). Dan W. brings up how official church doesn't touch any of this. Where does that leave FARMS speculation? Is it rejecting early LDS prophets? DCP suggests not reading former prophets too closely or assuming inerrancy. Statements that affirm historicity of BOM are OK, contradictory/problematic utterances not important (apparently).

Around the one hour mark now. If you're going to jump in and listen, this is a good place to start, as things will begin to get interesting. DCP: "I don't think that the Brethren are led at every moment by God ... a lot of the time they are left to struggle with problems." Pilot church programs, for example. "I believe that God is playing a three-dimensional chess game." God is working both inside and outside the LDS church.

DCP: "I can see the future." Ergo, if I can, prophets can, too.

What about Joseph Smith being prophesied in ancient scripture. DCP ascribes to Blake Ostler's view regarding a future that's not fixed. God makes things happen in the future through his power, some scripture is God telegraphing his intentions, not a set future. Starting to sound very Straussian?
topic image
Friday, Sep 30, 2011, at 09:23 AM
How Can We Trust Mormon Scholars?
Original Author(s): Hoggle
DANIEL C. PETERSON - SECTION 3   -Guid-
The Huffington Post comments are worth looking at:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/katie-h...

Tapir Rider said: "You are a university professor of Eastern languages, an academic colleague of Dr. Cross, yet you ignored his 1991 assessment of the Bat Creek Stone and instead focused on the writings of Dr. McCulloch, an Economics professor."

"The archaeologists have published that it is a hoax. A professor of Hebrew languages [Dr. Cross] disagreed with the writings of an economist [Dr. McCulloch], yet you have published in support of the Bat Creek Stone. This sure seems to be the way pseudo studies go.

Dr. Peterson replied: "I respect Frank Moore Cross enormously, but I don't grant him infallibility, either."

For anyone interested in who Dr. Frank Moore Cross, Jr. is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Mo...

"He was one of only two American scholars on the scroll-publication team [Dead Sea Scrolls], being personally responsible for identifying thousands of fragments, all of which have now been published. Cross is widely regarded as a pioneer in Qumran studies."

The Bat Creek Stone was alleged to have been from the same time period of the Dead Sea Scrolls. That is why Dr. Cross's assessment is so valuable. He was the American professor who did so much with actual artifacts written in Hebrew from that time period.

Here is a little about the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Bat Creek Inscription:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea...

"They are written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, mostly on parchment, but with some written on papyrus.[1] These manuscripts generally date between 150 BCE and 70 CE"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat_Cree...

"Cross stated that only two letters of the entire inscription could conceivably be considered Paleo-Hebrew of the period in question (1st century BC to 1st century AD). Cross also said Gordon's reading of the inscription ("for the Jews") was based on the Aramaic alphabet rather than Paleo-Hebrew.[16]"

How is Dr. Peterson qualified in regards to the Bat Creek Stone? What are Dr. Peterson's credentials to suggest that Dr. Cross made a mistake?

How can we trust Mormon Scholars?