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 | Wednesday, Feb 23, 2005, at 08:49 AM Will Mother Teresa be in the Celestial Kingdom? Posted By Misstaken BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD - SECTION 2 -Guid- | ↑ |
| This one got me set off many years ago, in a discussion with a RS President, who insisted that if she were not baptised in the LDS church (Mother Teresa), no matter how righteous she had been (and truly Christlike in my opinion), this woman was NOT going to the Celestial Kingdom.
I just never got it. I have often wondered about the origin of Christian Baptism before John the Baptist. Was he influenced by the Essenes, or some other group, or even through the silk trade to India and the Hindu practices of washing in the River Ganges.??? I understand it as a symbol, an outward ordinance of an inner change to be christ-like. As far as I could tell Jesus was telling us to be christ-like to follow his words in our personal lives. I always used to quote the NT case of those two guys baptising in Jesus' name, and the Apostles got very hung up about it, to be told off by Jesus, because they were losing the point about what baptism was all about. I think he said something like, if they are for me, they are not against me. So.....I think, that a person can be christ-like without even being a christian. That being christ-like transends the person of Jesus of Nazereth, because it is a way of being. (Hope ya'll don't think I am being too blasphemous here - I know what I mean, but doesn't always come across well in print). So, I think the LDS religion makes important something that is not important. That it is the manner of living that is imperative not the outward ordinance. I don't think I'll be showing my little chitty to them people on the pearly gates, I just don't think that that is what it is all about.. Credits: Misstaken |
| | Friday, May 8, 2009, at 07:56 AM Family History Expert Says Vicarious Work Okay For Non-Relatives "If The Spirit Directs" Posted By Public Denial Private Practice BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD - SECTION 2 -Guid- | ↑ |
| Though official church policy prohibits performing vicarious work for non-relatives, a prominent family history expert just told me that the spirit trumps church policy.
He said where an individual gets a spiritual confirmation to do the work of a non-relative, it should be nonetheless. He said that upon the spirit's prompting, he has prepared names and done vicarious work for non-relatives in the past. He said he will continue to prepare and perform such work when prompted and will advise others to do the same under similar circumstances regardless of the negative publicity brought on by the news of Obama's mother. Joseph Smith used to say the same thing about marrying multiple women. |
 | Friday, May 8, 2009, at 07:58 AM Defending the Dead Dunk Description Posted By Steve Benson BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD - SECTION 2 -Guid- | ↑ |
| I've seen the Mormon "baptism for the dead" ritual procedure first-hand, having at one time been a temple worker in the Provo temple assigned to the dunk tank, where I was tasked with making sure each person being dunked went completely under the water.
If asked by the media to describe what goes on behind Mormon temple walls when it comes to so-called "baptisms for the dead," I would not hesitate to employ the "dunk" term--and here's why (which I would explain to the interviewer): --The dunking involves dully and rotely reading from a scrolling list of names on a proxy poolside screen. --Young stand-ins (often provided from the ranks Mormon teenage youth groups) are herded into the ox tub. --Several dead people are vicariously dunked in rapid, monotonous succession via each warm-bodied vicarious volunteer--the latter who is repeatedly and mechanically put under by the priesthood baptizer reading off the screen. --The soaked stand-in is then herded out of the tank, given a towel as they drippingly emerge and pointed toward the changing room. --Then comes the next compliant stand-in. --Over and over and over. The process has all the charm and spirituality of taking a number at a barbershop. It is a virtual cattle call, conveyor belt, numb-minded operation that literally put me to sleep just watching it from my vantage point alongside the tub. "Dunk" is, therefore, a very appropriate term. Attempts by some to liken the term "dunking" to the "F-word" is a silly exercise in non-comparability--a water-logged effort to protect feelings at the expense of facts that doesn't hold H2O and which sinks like a rock. So, I say dump the facade and cut to the facts. Indeed, when talking to the media about "vicarious" Mormon baptisms for the dead, the term "dunk" fits right in as an apt descriptor not only for the reasons I cited but because of the fact that working in the media, I know how reporters appreciate access to telling, accurate details--particularly when practitioners of the secret arts want to keep the details to a minimum. Now, if offended Mormons have a problem with the "dunk" term being applied to their temple baptism dopey hokey-pokey, tough. Cry me a filled font. They are not in the least bit concerned with how offensive this cult practice is to the memory of the devout dead who died for and/or in their religion of choice, not to mention how insensitive the ritual is in trampling on the feelings of the dead's family. If non-Mormons are troubled by such explicit descriptions of what really goes on in the Mormon temple dunk tank, then they need to remember, as Benjamin Franklin observed, that the sting of the reproach is the truth of it. Mormonism's post-mortem watering of the dead is a dull, dumb, desensitized dunking exercise--and that's what, if asked, I would publicly call it. I say give the masses and the media the facts and let the inconvenient cult chips fall where they may. Telling the truth about this "sacred" Mormon practice is, in my opinion, a definite slam dunk. |
| | Friday, May 8, 2009, at 08:02 AM Mormons Deny Baptizing US Founding Fathers, But Here's Official Picture And Story From LDS Site Posted By Deconstructor BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD - SECTION 2 -Guid- | ↑ |
| Today the Salt Lake Tribune documented Mormon Church claims that the US Founding Fathers are all Mormons now, because they appeared to a Prophet in the temple to be baptized into the church.
See: http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_1231050... The LDS response is laughable. Some have have denied it. but here's the official story and picture from an official LDS site: http://www.ldsces.org/inst_manuals/pr... The LDS Church is still teaching this gospel truth, that the Founding Fathers are now Mormons because they requested and received Mormon baptism. So why deny it? They should just embrace their marvelous work and wonder! |
| | Friday, May 8, 2009, at 08:03 AM Mormons May Be Spooked By The Fact That Their Church Has Necro-Dunked U.S. Presidents But So It Goes Posted By Steve Benson BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD - SECTION 2 -Guid- | ↑ |
| My grandfather Ezra Taft Benson openly discoursed on famous disembodied spirits appearing in the House of the Lord, including the Founding Fathers (some of whom eventually became president of the United States):
“When I became President of the Twelve and Spencer W. Kimball became President of the Church, we met, just the two of us, every week in our Thursday meetings in the temple, just to be sure that things were properly coordinated between the Twelve and the First Presidency. “After one of those first meetings, we talked about the man sacred documents in some of the older temples. St. George was mentioned in particular . . . and it was agreed that I would go into the archives—the walk-in vault—of that great temple and review the sacred documents that were there. . . . “And there in the St. George Temple I saw what I had always hoped and prayed that someday I would see. Ever since I returned as a humble missionary and first learned that the Founding Fathers had appeared in that temple, I wanted to see the record. And I saw the record. They did appear to Wilford Woodruff twice and asked why the work hadn’t been done for them. They had founded this country and the Constitution of this land, and they had been true to those principles. Later the work was done for them.” (Ezra Taft Benson, address delivered in Sandy, Utah, 30 December 1978, reprinted in Benson, "The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson" [Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1988], p. 603) But that was not the whole of it. In earlier remarks at the re-dedication of the St. George Temple entitled “Our Founding Fathers Stood in This Holy Place,” my grandfather again spoke openly of these “sacred” experiences in the temple vault. (Ezra Taft Benson, “Our Founding Fathers Stood in This Holy Place,” St. George Temple Re-dedication, 12 September 1975, LDS Church Archives; see also, Benson, “The Faith of Our Founding Fathers,” in Faith [Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book, 1983], pp. 21-22). |
| | Monday, May 11, 2009, at 07:50 AM Mormon Apostles Make No Apologies For Plan To Baptize Ever Dead Person That Ever Lived Posted By Deconstructor BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD - SECTION 2 -Guid- | ↑ |
| While the Mormon Church PR department is offering denials and making excuses, this is what the church has been telling its members for years:
Now there is another characteristic that identifies His Church and also has to do with baptism. There is a very provoking and a very disturbing question about those who died without baptism. What about them? If there is none other name given under heaven whereby man must be saved - and that is true, and they have lived and died without even hearing that name, and if baptism is essential - and it is, and they died without even the invitation to accept it, where are they now? That is hard to explain. It describes most of the human family. There are several religions larger than most Christian denominations, and together they are larger than all of them combined. Their adherents for centuries have lived and died and never heard the word baptism. What is the answer for them? That is a most disturbing question. What power would establish one Lord and one baptism, and then allow it to be that most of the human family never comes within its influence? With that question unanswered, the vast majority of the human family must be admitted to be lost, and against any reasonable application of the law of justice or of mercy, either. How could Christianity itself be sustained? When you find the true church you will find the answer to that disturbing question. If a church has no answer for that, how can it lay claim to be His Church? He is not willing to write off the majority of the human family who were never baptized. Those who admit in puzzled frustration that they have no answer to this cannot lay claim to authority to administer to the affairs of the Lord on the earth, or to oversee the work by which all mankind must be saved. We have been authorized to perform baptisms vicariously so that when they hear the gospel preached and desire to accept it, that essential ordinance will have been performed. They need not ask for any exemption from that essential ordinance. Indeed, the Lord Himself was not exempted from it. Here and now then, we move to accomplish the work to which we are assigned. We are busily engaged in that kind of baptism. We gather the records of our kindred dead, indeed, the records of the entire human family; and in sacred temples in baptismal fonts designed as those were anciently, we perform these sacred ordinances. “Strange,” one may say. It is passing strange. It is transcendent and supernal. The very nature of the work testifies that He is our Lord, that baptism is essential, that He taught the truth. And so the question may be asked, “You mean you are out to provide baptism for all who have ever lived?” And the answer is simply, “Yes.” For we have been commanded to do so. “You mean for the entire human family? Why, that is impossible. If the preaching of the gospel to all who are living is a formidable challenge, then the vicarious work for all who have ever lived is impossible indeed.” To that we say, “Perhaps, but we shall do it anyway.” I bear witness that this work is true, that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, that there is on this earth today a prophet of God to lead modern Israel in this great obligation. I know that the Lord lives and that He broods anxiously over the work for the redemption of the dead, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. - President Boyd K. Packer, "The Redemption of the Dead" Churchwide General Conference, October 5, 1975, Church Ensign Magazine, Nov. 1975, page 97 http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dl... And for those who have died without a knowledge of the truth, a way has been provided. Sacred ordinances can be performed by the faithful living for the waiting dead. Houses of the Lord known as temples dot the land. As Elijah the prophet testified, the hearts of the fathers have been turned to the children, and the children to the fathers. (D&C 110: 14–15.) None shall be denied. All shall have opportunity for eternal blessings. - Thomas S. Monson, "An Invitation to Exaltation" broadcast by Satellite during an church-wide investigator’s fireside, Salt Lake City, 1 March 1984. Also “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Church Ensign Magazine, July 1984, page 69 http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dl... In the Church we hold sufficient authority to perform all of the ordinances necessary to redeem and to exalt the whole human family. And, because we have the keys to the sealing power, what we bind in proper order here will be bound in heaven. Those keys—the keys to seal and bind on earth, and have it bound in heaven—represent the consummate gift from our God. With that authority we can baptize and bless, we can endow and seal, and the Lord will honor our commitments. The Prophet Joseph Smith said he was frequently asked the question, “ ‘Can we not be saved without going through with all those ordinances, etc?’ I would answer, No, not the fullness of salvation. Jesus said, ‘There are many mansions in my Father’s house, and I will go and prepare a place for you.’ House here named should have been translated kingdom; and any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole law too” (History of the Church, 6:184). - Boyd K. Packer, "The Holy Temple," Church Ensign Magazine, Feb. 1995, page 32 http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dl... The whole New Testament centers on the Resurrection of the Lord. The message is that all are to be resurrected. Every scripture and every motivation that apply to missionary work have their application to ordinance work for the dead. You must know that baptism for someone who is dead is quite as essential as baptism for someone who is living. There is no difference in the importance of it. One by one it must happen. They must do it here while living, or it must be done for them here after they die. - President Boyd K. Packer, “Your Family History: Getting Started,” Church Ensign Magazine, Aug. 2003, page 12, also President Packer’s book "The Holy Temple" http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dl... The great work of providing the saving ordinances for our kindred dead is a vital part of the threefold mission of the Church. We do this work for a purpose, which is to redeem our dead ancestors. Temple work is essential for both us and our kindred dead who are waiting for these saving ordinances to be done for them. It is essential because “we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect.” 3 They need the saving ordinances, and we need to be sealed to them. For this reason it is important that we trace our family lines so that no one is left out. Searching for our kindred dead isn’t just a hobby. It is a fundamental responsibility for all members of the Church. We believe that life continues after death and that all will be resurrected. 4 We believe that families may continue in the next life if they have kept the special covenants made in one of the sacred temples under the authority of God. We believe that our deceased ancestors can also be eternally united with their families when we make covenants in their behalf in the temples. Our deceased forebears may accept these covenants, if they choose to do so, in the spirit world. 5 The great vicarious work for our kindred dead in our temples demonstrates both the justice and the fairness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Prophet Joseph Smith explained the terrible dilemma which would face God’s children without temple work for our dead. Said he: “One dies and is buried, having never heard the Gospel of reconciliation; to the other the message of salvation is sent, he hears and embraces it, and is made the heir of eternal life. Shall the one become the partaker of glory and the other be consigned to hopeless perdition? Is there no chance for his escape?” 6 Fortunately our ancestors will have the opportunity to receive and accept the saving ordinances as we identify them and complete these sacred ordinances for them by proxy. We do for them what they cannot do for themselves. It is a very satisfying experience. - First Presidency, James E. Faust, “The Phenomenon That Is You,” Ensign, Nov. 2003, page 53 http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dl... The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us, is to seek after our dead.” Because we cannot be saved without them, “it is necessary that those who have gone before and those who come after us should have salvation in common with us, and thus hath God made it obligatory to man,” says the Prophet Joseph Smith. (LDS Church Publication, Times and Seasons 5:616.) From this, then, we see that while it is necessary to preach the gospel in the nations of the earth and to do all other good works in the Church, yet the greatest commandment given us, and made obligatory, is temple work in our own behalf and in behalf of our dead. Again the Prophet says: “Baptism for the dead is the only way that men can appear as saviors upon Mount Zion. The proclamation of the first principles of the gospel was a means of salvation to man individually, but men, by actively engaging in rites of salvation substitutionally, become instrumental in bringing multitudes of their kin into the kingdom of God. … This doctrine appears glorious inasmuch as it exhibits the greatness of divine compassion and benevolence in the extent of the plan of human salvation. This glorious truth is well calculated to enlarge the understanding, and to sustain the soul under troubles, difficulties, and distresses. … This doctrine presents in a clear light the wisdom and mercy of God in preparing an ordinance for the salvation of the dead being baptized by proxy, their names recorded in heaven, and they judged according to the deeds done in the body. This doctrine was the burden of the scriptures. Those Saints who neglect it, in behalf of their deceased relatives, do it at theperil of their own salvation.” (LDS Church Publication, Times and Seasons 2:577–78.) The reason our own salvation stands in jeopardy is because it is necessary that parents and children not only receive the ordinance of baptism, but they must also be joined together from generation to generation. It is necessary for us to go into the temples, be baptized, confirmed, and receive all the ordinances for our dead, just as we receive them for ourselves. (See Official History of the LDS Church 6:365.) “But how are they to become saviors on Mount Zion? By building their temples, erecting their baptismal fonts, and going forth and receiving all the ordinances, baptisms, confirmations, washings, anointings, ordinations and sealing powers upon their heads, in behalf of all their progenitors who are dead, and redeem them that they may come forth in the first resurrection and be exalted to thrones of glory with them; and herein is the chain that binds the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, which fulfills the mission of Elijah. And I would to God this temple was now done, that we might go into it, and go to work and improve our time, and make use of the seals while they are on earth. “The Saints have not too much time to save and redeem their dead, and gather together their living relatives, that they may be saved also, before the earth will be smitten, and the [consummation] decreed falls upon the world.” (Official History of the LDS Church 6:183–84.) These passages emphasize the importance of the work for the dead, for we cannot be saved without them, nor can they be saved without us. Our salvation cannot be accomplished unless the fathers and the children are joined together, bound, sealed in perfect family order. Husbands must be united by authority with their wives, and children to their parents, until theirs is one grand family composed of all the faithful from the beginning to the end of time, with Adam, our progenitor, standing in his calling as the father of us all. - Church President, Joseph Fielding Smith, “Salvation Universal,” Ensign, Feb. 1971, page 2 http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dl... |
| | Thursday, May 28, 2009, at 08:08 AM Dead Dunking Is Ritualized Memory And Name Desecration Posted By Cheryl BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD - SECTION 2 -Guid- | ↑ |
| Mormons have a right to their temples and weird beliefs.
They cross the line when they use non-mormon names in their rituals. Some people leave behind massive estates, original artworks, and a long legacy of public service when they die. Most of us leave a modest estate, our good name, and the fleeting memory some have of us, with instructions for a funeral and possibly a headstone. Mormons then, step in and take over the names and the memories. They need names to keep their temples operating and to extort tithes from members. They use the names of non-mormon dead and exmos for their own purposes. It makes no difference if a person has left other instructions for his/her final end. If someone says they don't want a dead-dunking, mormons say they are stupid and bigotted, that they're persecuting well meaning church people who only want to give them a "gift." There's a problem with this. Stalkers give unwanted gifts. Shyster marketers give unwanted gifts. Manipulative inlaws give unwanted gifts. If someone doesn't want a gift, they have a right to say no. Of course mormons do claim that the dead can say no. But their rituals don't include this possibility in the wording which declares every dead victim as a member of the mormon church. Mormons believe that the dead are in spirit prisons with mishie boys as guards who teach them the gospel day in and day out until the inmates see the light. Then, comes the proxy baptism and the inmates are allowed to eternally progress in the morg feeding chain in the sky. If they refuse the "gift," they get to dwell in a lowlife kingdom forever where no one has family or genitals, but they're happier than anyone in the earthly existence. Convoluted? Uh-huh. A fair reasonable choice? Nope. |
| | Thursday, Jul 23, 2009, at 07:18 AM LDS May Have Posthumously Baptized Obama's African Ancestors Posted By Matt Canham BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD - SECTION 2 -Guid- | ↑ |
From the Salt Lake Tribune:
Mormons have not only posthumously baptized President Barack Obama's mother into their faith, but they may have performed the ritual for the president's African ancestors as well, including his father, grandfather and great-grandfather, according to researcher Helen Radkey.http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_1289308... |
| | Friday, Aug 28, 2009, at 08:03 AM Kennedy's Eternal Salvation Will Have To Wait Posted By Paul Rolly BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD - SECTION 2 -Guid- | ↑ |
From the Salt Lake Tribune:
It's not certain whether the late Sen. Ted Kennedy would be more palatable to conservative Utah Republicans if he were a Mormon, but it appears someone tried to make that happen.http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_1321787... |
| | Tuesday, Oct 13, 2009, at 07:54 AM Newest Catholic Saint Baptized And "Sealed" To Wife In LDS Temple? Posted By Salt Lake Tribune BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD - SECTION 2 -Guid- | ↑ |
From The Salt Lake Tribune:
Father Damien, the Roman Catholic priest who cared for lepers in Hawaii in the 19th century, apparently is a saint twice over.http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_1354614... |
| | Thursday, Jul 22, 2010, at 09:48 AM Ungrateful Dead Posted By Rastacat BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD - SECTION 2 -Guid- | ↑ |
| For the most of us, I'm sure we didn't have any spectral expressions of gratitude, from relatives or anyone that we've done temple rituals for that warrants our long pilgrimage to a temple. (For those who live FAR from a temple, the costs in gas, travel time, (example one temple in the whole country, or entire region. For myself I had to go down to Cardston, I'm sure this was a motivating factor for building a temple in Edmonton, (you have to go through CALGARY 3 hours, then 2 additional hours to Cardston). For Vancouverites you had to go to Seattle). Manitoba doesn't even have one. And Canadian provinces tend to be large, What about Mormons living throughout the province and have to drive FAR to get to that one tiny dot? (Again a reason why they built the temple in Edmonton (Which is sad, because That would really help the less actives quit).
Anyways, the wear and tear on our vehicles, gas, time, (usually the entire ward goes, and we do ten dunks per turn (so In my career as a Mormon estimate over 100+). This is a HUGE sacrifice we're doing on behalf for someone who may or may not even accept the 6 discussions (and I'm pretty sure, even Missionaries up there are avoided lol). So you'd think that when we do these water in the brain inducing rituals, it's a HUGE gesture, yet I'm sure you guys as I did, saw, felt, heard nothing. Not even a pat on the back for a job well done. And driving in a car full of idiot, wasting gas, wearing thin our oil, and knocking a few hours off our car's life span at least once a month, IS A JOB WELL DONE in itself. I can't even tally how many times I heard of the Kamakazi pilot attacking the Hawaii temple story. Or even the boys who want to try and vandalize the Cardston temple but couldn't find it even though it's the big obnoxious building that you can see from a distance. (resembles a mythical magical building from a distance the way it hangs on the valley like that). This is a significant gesture of mercy from us, as we can't stand to see them in cages and we have to "free the birdies" (Mormon urban legend). So that they could at last have the fullness of the gossip AND avoid getting dunked because getting dunked 10 times and having water go into your eyeballs through your sinuses really sucks. (Yes I did pinch my nose). On this note, how in the hell can a GHOST even get baptized. or wet? Don't you need to be a solid? anyways... The stories of people waiting for hundreds of years to play dunk the clown. Stories of how day after day for hundreds of years (or however long the records go back)... of asking has the work been done yet? pissing off St Peter. (Seriously his job must suck worse that GREG DODGE). And not even a THANK YOU? Or a simple feeling of peace to even encourage us to come out this far? The protocols of polite society customizes that if you're the recipient of a genuine act of good will aid. You show your appreciation to the good deed doer, by saying Thank you. Or they teach us this in GRADE school. There is nothing but ingratitude in Mormon society from insensitive insist of paying tithing in response from the pleas of mercy from distressed Saints.. Why should Mormon Ghosts be any different right? It's just give tithe and fuck off. The ghost say do work for us and fuck off. Like now at least when the judgment day comes and we're all resurrected they could be awaken first during the Morning right? That they wouldn't have to parish for being misled or something. It's like we're being shafted on our tips, for DOING A GOOD JOB. And getting dead dunked in a sub zero Necropolis Grants Tomb Lenin's Tomb, or Sung Jong Il looking tomb (Cardston baptism font chamber, was very Cubist Art Deco, marble http://www.moroni10.com/LDS/Temple_Tour/baptistry.html (the photo doesn't do the chamber justice). It was a large square looking thing (like a palace dining room), There was this balcony section up. and it was VERY VERY COLD in the cold Canadian winters. Icy Cold Marble, which oddly felt very very comfortable and Smooth on my soggy feet. lol. In the photo, It's a flash, because the walls were thick nuclear proof bank vault marble granite things. Just like a tomb. Like during winter with the ugly pruned trees of Cardston, I can see it being used as a fortress against a horde of Zombies. (Perhaps those who are ungrateful for desecrating their memories and honor in this blasphemous manner! So was it just me, or did you guys also have first row seats to the Ungrateful dead concerts? Hell I even did the work for one the clan of one of my YSA girls. All these English blokes from Suffield. (It's in my diary). Not a Well done Cheers Mate? when I'm sure if I got them a pint at the pub after ship building day, I'd get a cheers mate. Sheesh. Ungrateful dead. Like what happened to all those stories of some Saints seeing visions of blissful and rested spirits in their Mormon Underwares, freaking us out smiling at us standing over our beds. It's because I'm a cat isn't it? Well as the saying goes. Sheesh that's gratitude for ya. |